S1:Ep4 The Godmother of the Metaverse

Jane DOE: The following podcast was released in 2021 on a separate platform. IC leadership, thought leadership, titles, current events, and technology may have changed and evolved since its original release.

Cathy Hackl: So, I want you to think about the metaverse as a convergence of the physical and the digital … as a moment where the world as we understand becomes machine-readable.

Jane DOE: The opinions and views expressed in the following podcast do not represent the views of NIU or any other U.S. government entity. They are solely the opinions and views of Jane DOE and her guests. a mention of organizations, publications, or products not owned or operated by the U.S. government is not a statement of support and does not constitute U.S. government endorsement.

Welcome back to Intelligence Jumpstart. I am your host, Jane DOE. On this episode, I got to chat with my co-host Lieutenant Colonel Jake Sotiriadis. Dr. Sotiriadis is a member of NIU’s research faculty and the Director of Operations and Engagement for NIU’s new collaboration center – iRes Lab.
Jake had the amazing opportunity to speak with the Godmother of the Metaverse, Cathy Hackl.

Cathy Hackl is a leading tech futurist and globally recognized business leader specializing in augmented reality (AR), virtual reality (VR), & spatial computing. She is one of LinkedIn's top technology voices and a champion for diversity.

Cathy has worked with some of the biggest names in tech including Amazon Web Services (AWS), Magic Leap, and HTC VIVE. She leads the Futures Intelligence Group, a futures research & consulting firm that works with clients in tech, fashion, media, government, and defense implementing innovation strategies, strategic foresight, and emerging technologies. She's also a top Forbes Contributor.

Jane DOE: Hi, Jake. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today.

Jake Sotiriadis: Good morning. Great to be here.

Jane DOE: So, I have to tell you, your conversation with Cathy Hackle was really very fascinating. After I finished listening to it, I did buy her book, and I think I’m quickly becoming a fan. Did you know that she is referred to as the godmother of the metaverse?

Jake Sotiriadis: Yes, absolutely. That's quite a title and I think it's quite an apt one for her. She's a pretty amazing individual.

Jane DOE: She seems that way. I mean, it’s clear that she’s so passionate and excited about what she does. Which is very cool, in and of itself. Her passion for what she does, is very clear. And she's very prolific. Every time I log on these days I see stuff from her or about her - she’s all over the place.

So, it has been a minute since you had your discussion with her. I believe you spoke with her back in August 2021. Given that technology is on such an accelerated path these days, and today is pretty much a different place than August. Since then, Mark Zuckerberg announced that Facebook changed his name to Meta. What other changes have we seen since then?

Jake Sotiriadis: Well, absolutely, I think that's probably the biggest development in terms of catapulting the metaverse to something that I think, for most people, was very abstract, into something that is soon going to be quite palpable. And I think what’s really important about this discussion that we had with Cathy, is that she actually lays out for us, you know, what the metaverse is what it isn't. And I think that's the biggest question out there right now for most people is what is this thing? And how are we going to use it? What are the opportunities and challenges that might come out of it?

Jane DOE: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I did a quick Google search .. Do people know about the metaverse? And I feel like, there is so much ambiguity that people do have the same questions., but it's, you know, all the things you spoke about with Cathy are there and, you know, I think I ended up spending a few hours reading all of the articles and posts. I wasn't really aware how connected to us, right now … for instance, last week, I saw - I guess it was an article that said don't tell Zuckerberg but investors already found the metaverse. But it was talking about the gaming platform, Roblox - that you and Cathy joked about giving all your money. So, clearly the metaverse has economic implications for us. What other implications, what questions should we, as the Intelligence Community, be asking ourselves?

Jake Sotiriadis: I think what's really important in terms of the Intelligence Community and the defense establishment and the implications for national security, how do we take these technological developments? And frankly, this is, this is something even bigger than just the technology, this has societal implications for how human beings are going to interact with each other in the future. How do we glean insights from these developments and then translate them into what we're going to do to make our national security and national intelligence strategies viable, relevant, and frankly, on the cutting edge for the future?

Jane DOE: I don’t want to get ahead of your discussion with Cathy, but I’m interested in your thoughts, here. Do you have any insight as to how we will adapt … what changes … and what we should expect to see from the metaverse?

Jake Sotiriadis: Well, I think, first of all, we need to come to grips with what the metaverse is and what it isn't. We need to find, and I think in our discussion with Cathy, we touched upon some of these points about how the Intelligence Community - how the defense establishment will use and exploit the metaverse and when what that means in terms of this continuing digital transformation, that collectively, we are all undergoing at this point in time. And I think it really, it portends a huge paradigm shift for us, in terms of how we consume information, how we … how senior leaders will make decisions - the kind of digital environment that we're going to be living in, and even how we communicate ideas and concepts in the future. All of that, I think is going to be transformed significantly. But the dilemma that I think we find ourselves in is that we're talking about concepts and technologies that aren't sort of in the day-to-day realm yet.

And, and as often happens, government policy tends to lag behind technological developments. So, we need to think carefully about how we're going to put policies in place that would allow us to take advantage of these technologies and developments while at the same time accounting for where we are today and then building aspirational futures for where we need to be.

Jane DOE: So, if it were up to you, how would you define, or build, our aspirational future? How would you like that to look for the Intelligence community?

Jake Sotiriadis: Well, I think what that means for us is, you know how we've already defined it in terms of our national security strategy - that the United States remains the preeminent global power - that we remain militarily, economically, and frankly, even in soft power, the global leader and maintaining and developing and enhancing our global alliances. And frankly staying ahead of our peer competitors, namely China and Russia and others in this emerging global competition that we find ourselves in, right now, and using every tool and asset in our means to achieve that and to build that to build that aspirational future.

Jane DOE: Really interesting and it seems like quite the feat for where we are now. But, Jake, thank you again for chatting with me today. This has been such a fun discussion. I'm really excited to see how this moves forward and how we, the national security community, adapts to the metaverse. Thanks, Jake.

Jake Sotiriadis: Thank you Jane DOE.

Jake Sotiriadis: Cathy, it's so wonderful to host you on our podcast, thank you for being here today.

Cathy Hackl: I'm really excited to be here.

Jake Sotiriadis: Well let’s dive right in. One of the things that I think is so interesting about your career, and all the media engagement that you're doing is this idea of disruptive technology. And, you've just got such a depth of knowledge and experience in industry and as a thought leader. Was there an aha moment for you that you see as sort of jumpstarting your interest in disruptive tech?

Cathy Hackl: Yeah, I definitely had that, that pivotal moment, let's say, where I recognized that I had seen something … or had at least understood that there was a really interesting future ahead of us - related to emerging technology. So, you know, I’ll kind of be very brief – but back in 2004, when I was working in media, I, you know, I was working at CNN - and part of my role there was to look at all the raw footage that was coming in from the war in Iraq. So, you know, obviously, the people that are listening to this, you know, can, you know, relate, because they probably had to see horrible things. I had to kind of see them, you know, getting streamed live.

But, you know, when you have to see those sorts of things, you kind of have to - the only way can describe it, as you kind of turn your humanity switch off just a little bit, or you turn the dial a little bit, just enough to get by and continue having a normal life. I always joke saying that I was like a Facebook moderator before there were Facebook moderators. Right? That sort of thing. But for me - so that kind of really, really kind of stayed with me for a long time - that kind of almost PTSD sort of thing. Right?

And it wasn't till about six years ago, that I went to an event, and I got invited to put on a VR headset. I was pretty skeptical at that time on VR. I was like, I don't know about this. But I put the device on, and I went into an experience called confinement by The Guardian … that puts you in a very small solitary confinement cell where prisoners spend 90% of their time. I'm in there, kind of in this solitary confinement cell, within a couple minutes, I felt claustrophobic.

I took the device off and I said, this is the future. I don't know what the future of storytelling, or the future what it is. But I saw I just saw the future, and this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. So, you know, I was coming in from working in media, working in live streaming, when I got into tech. And then I said, I want to go into VR, AR, emerging technology. This is what I want to do. So very, very clear moment for me when I realized these technologies have immense power, and I wanted to be part of the people that pioneer this new, you know, this new place that we're heading.

Jake Sotiriadis: That’s an amazing story, and you know, quite, quite a moment of realization there. And you know, and I think you were actually just on 60 minutes, very recently, talking about all of these technologies and something that is becoming known as the metaverse. We're hearing a lot about the metaverse. Actually, Facebook’s CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, just announced that Facebook is probably going to be a metaverse-focused company. So, we hear this term, but we don't really know what it is. Can you as a tech futurist expert, can you tell us what the metaverse is and how you might define that?

Cathy Hackl: Yeah, and you know, I think Mark Zuckerberg speaking about it so publicly, and then Satya Nadella from Microsoft, you know, in one of the earnings calls, saying that one of the goals for Microsoft is the metaverse … like, that is a big … those are big statements that should resonate with people - with everyone in business and defense and education, everywhere.

So, the metaverse in all honesty is still a bit of a hazy term. We're still trying to define it. Most people probably came across the term metaverse through science fiction. Through you know, Neal Stephenson wrote Snow Crash. He coined the term metaverse, it was the first time it was used. And most people when they think metaverse, also might think Ready Player One, by Ernie Cline … or the movie by Steven Spielberg - which pretty much is a pretty dystopic view of a future - where the world is so horrible that we kind of spend time in a headset.

So, what I tell people is, I want you to kind of not pick those definitions. I reject those types of definitions of the metaverse, and I want you to think about the metaverse a little bit differently. So, very simple for me to explain to folks is Web 1.0 connected information and you got the internet. Web 2.0 connected people and you got social media. Then Web 3.0. ... kind of where we’re starting. So, we're at the end of Web 2.0, we're starting to go into Web 3.0. So, Web 3.0 connects people, places, and things. And sometimes these people, places, and things can be fully virtual, or they can be in our physical world - but with a layer of augmentation.

So, I want you to think about the metaverse as a convergence of the physical and the digital … as a moment where the world as we understand becomes machine-readable. Many people call it the future of the internet, or the successor of the internet, because we don't have the right words to describe it. But all of us that are working in this industry … we're starting to work on it, defining it, trying to understand what does it mean? What are the different nuances? So, very important for people to understand it's not just VR, it's not just gaming. It's not Ready Player One. It's a lot broader than that. And it's about this convergence of physical and digital - both in our physical world, which will have digital elements, and also in virtual worlds where we will spend some time.

Jake Sotiriadis: That is fascinating. And so, it really is something that's so broad and all-encompassing. Would you maybe think about it as Web 3.0? Would that be a way to perhaps frame it?

Cathy Hackl: So intellectually, Web 3.0 and the metaverse are not necessarily the same thing. But it is easier for people to wrap their heads around Web 3.0 and try to understand the metaverse. The metaverse is a bigger construct. The metaverse is a system of systems. It's a lot bigger and broader than that. So yeah, I mean, it's still like it's a hazy term to define. A lot of us are working, you know, to create it. I do think, and I'm very adamant in saying that the definition should not be left to one person, and the creation should not be left to one Corporation.

You know, once again, I always go back to Ready Play One. We don't want that. We don't want one Corporation running everything in our lives. You know, so I think people need to have a broader understanding of the metaverse. And I do want to kind of preface this with saying that when people hear the term, the metaverse, right, you have to kind of almost think about it this way … at least this is how, how I think about it.

You know how you might have the great tri-state area, right? It's multiple places in one place. So, think about it almost like when you hear the term, the metaverse, you have to think about the greater metaverse. Right? And within that greater metaverse, you have meta verses or meta worlds of sorts. Right? So, when Roblox calls himself a metaverse, that's kind of what they're referring to. When Fortnite calls himself a metaverse, that's what they're referring to. Right? So, that's kind of really important to kind of understand because it's there's a broader vision that is more encompassing - a bigger umbrella term. And then there's times where the word metaverse is used more, you know, for a specific platform or something. So, I do think that people need to kind of start to understand that when they hear the term being used by certain companies or things of that nature.

Jake Sotiriadis: So that's, that's a very important distinction. And I think, particularly now, for our audience here in the defense and the intelligence space …not only is there still that uncertainty about what this metaverse is, or perhaps what it should be … but you know, there are some voices that even talk about now or .. there are concepts out there talking about a military internet of things - or defense internet of things. So, you know, in your opinion, in following up on that definition, is there a need to perhaps, you know, be a, like a separate defense metaverse or an intelligence metaverse … or, if I understand it, the way you're describing, it seems like this might be more of an environment that the Intelligence Community needs to live in.

Cathy Hackl: Yeah, you're 100% right. Another way … so, when I was at Magic Leap, one of the north stars in the company culture was the concept of the of the magic verse. That's what they call the metaverse, they call it the magic verse, a branded version. Right? But when we explained it to folks in, you know, in defense or in an enterprise, it's, it's basically understanding that this is what's happening. So, you've got layer zero, which is the physical world that we live in. Right? It's finite - but you know, we're all living in this physical world. There's another layer, the layer, the first layer, let's call it that, which has data. Right? It's everything that our phones, our computers, our devices, everything that's going to our … you know, our drones, everything, everything's putting out data.

So, there’s this other layer that we as humans don't necessarily … don’t necessarily see. But it's a layer of data. Right? So, it's kind of when those two layers converge, and we as humans can actually see the data … we don't see it in ones and zeros. Right? - We’ll see it in holograms, or we see it in representations or whatever it is that that's going to show up in front of us. Right? - but it's kind of when those when those two worlds converge. Right.

So that opens up a huge other world of possibilities - and within two layers, there are you know, eventually consider it either that the concept is that there can be multiple other layers. So, there's going to be over those layers that are converging, you can pull data and you want to specifically access the historical layer. Right? So, you're able to kind of find out - oh, you know, what happened in this, you know, what happened in this part of town in x year, right? Or you're going to pull up information.

There will be an information layer, there will be a security layer, as well. So, from the defense standpoint, there's a lot of implications there on the data that will be produced - who can see it? - Who can access it? - Who can hack it? Right? So yeah, so it's almost like … like, everything that we're doing right now with our phones and our computers … you know we live in these and there's hacks and there's a cyber war happening. Take that, but it's gonna be all around us. So that, I think, major and massive implications for the future of intelligence.

Jake Sotiriadis: Absolutely. It’s just … it's so fascinating to discuss this because, you know, there are these … as futurists, right, as we think about these things, we know that we're talking about entities and worlds that don't necessarily exist yet – but we're going to need to understand how to function in them and build skill sets, and train people to be ready for that reality.

You know, one of the things that that we're seeing, particularly in the Intelligence Community - and also in the defense sector - is that many organizations are embracing - increasingly more now - virtual reality and augmented reality applications. And, you know, you actually recently partnered with the U.S. Air Force and built the first-ever virtual reality futures report in, in a VR format. Do you see this as the future of intelligence products moving forward? And, you know, how do you think VR and AR can change the way our security leaders consume information?

Cathy Hackl: Yeah, you know, it was a great project to work on, because it really kind of allowed us to take a report that normally would be in a … live in a PDF form. Right? Or it might get, the furthest that could go potentially would be the video.

Jake Sotiriadis (18:05): Right.

Cathy Hackl: … like, a 2d video, right? But if you take that report, and you actually create these four potential futures, that were presented in the report and actually bring them in into VR … where you can actually experience them and see them. I think that that's where it's very powerful because we know we as humans are very visual. It’s gonna be … I'm gonna, as a human, I'm gonna cognitively understand it differently. If I read it, I’m gonna understand it, but if I experience it, it's, it's different.
So, I think it has a lot of implications in being able to put people in these situations, and in these futures, to kind of better understand like … wow, that, you know, that fourth future, or whatever - one of the potential futures, was really not the future I want to see. So, what can I start doing now, so that we don't get to that future? Right?

Jake Sotiriadis: Absolutely.

Cathy Hackl: You know, what, we talked about the preferred future … in that case, it's like the least preferred. So, what can we do now so that we don't get to that horrible potential future? Or, you know, you step into the preferred future and say, oh this is actually really awesome. What types of systems or processes or things can we set up now so that we actually get to something like that?

So, I think there's a lot of power for, you know, for decision making for policy design - related to using these technologies - to kind of show people and put people in his experiences. Another example is if there's something that's very abstract … or kind of difficult to comprehend, etc. … or that or being able to translate that into a VR experience, that you can put the headset on and understand that in a in a much broader and better way - I think, is powerful as well, for, you know, for intelligence, decision makers.

(Manolis Minute introduction music)

Manolis Priniotakis (19:46): I’m Manolis Priniotakis, NIU’s Vice President for Research & Infrastructure and this is this episode’s Manolis Minute.

In the next episode, you’ll hear from Thom Shanker from the George Washington University on the media and national security.

There’s a long history, of course, on the media coverage of what we now call national security across the world – or put another way, in the past, work of war correspondents - and the quite graphic reporting on the Crimean War by English journalist, William Howard Russell, of the Times of London is worth spending some time looking at today. As are the sketches of the same war by Scottish artist William Simpson, to include one of the famed Charge of the Light Brigade … completed about a year after the event and sometime after Tennyson’s famous poem of the same name.

During the U.S. Civil War, reporters converged from all over world and the United States to cover the fighting. One report has always stood out to me … is a single paragraph by a Wisconsin State Journal … on the Combahee raid that freed more than 700 people from plantations during that war along the Combahee River. It mentions a black woman who led the raid and identifies her only as Moses.
Of course, we understand Moses to have been Harriet Tubman. Historians don’t actually know a lot of detail about Harriet Tubman’s Civil War exploits, but thanks to a contemporaneous report by this midwestern journal - we have a sense of at least one of her specific actions.

To learn more about Tubman’s Civil War service, I recommend The Tubman Command, Professor Elizabeth Cobbs’s speculative (albeit fictionalized) account from 2019 of Tubman’s role in the Combahee raid.

Thanks again for listening to Intelligence Jumpstart. For more information on NIU, please visit our website, www.ni-u.edu.

(Manolis Minute exit music)

Jake Sotiriadis: I mean, you're really taking, right … you're taking a product … that's a one-dimensional product … which is really what the IC and what the defense establishment is doing today. Right? Everything we're doing is giving people documents to read, but now you're actually creating a three or a four-dimensional product. And as you say … I think you're, you're bringing in … you're tapping into some elements of psychology, right .. and decision science to understand, you know, how consuming information that way might actually give a different outcome or maybe make the decision maker think differently about a particular situation. And that's, that's really, really fascinating.

Cathy Hackl: Yeah, I just want to add, Jake, I think it makes us think deeper about some of the issues, rather than just gloss over them in a giant document. I think that that, for me is the biggest the biggest, you know, feedback that I get is, wow, I never thought about that. Or I see it differently now.

Jake Sotiriadis: Yeah, right. oh, absolutely. And that's so important, to get that different perspective. I'm really excited if you can't tell, to talk about your book. It's a phenomenal book. And for those of us here and those of us listening, I really would love - I would highly recommend to our audience to go out and get the Augmented Workforce - which is Cathy's amazing book. And it talks about artificial intelligence 5G, AR and VR, which we've just discussed. But she does a wonderful job of really weaving their impact together on the workforce and the corporate environment of tomorrow. So, really, just, there's probably not a more important book that we all need to read right now. So, Cathy, can you tell us, you know, what, what led you to write it? And can you give us some key takeaways?

Cathy Hackl: Yeah, I have to say it's been very well received. We're very excited about the recognition the book is getting. It became an Amazon bestseller pretty quickly. And you know, in categories like strategic management, and the critical … what was it … in was at machine learning. No, machine … human-computer interaction. So yeah, it's been really exciting.

So, it's interesting, because I coauthored it with, with my coauthor, John Buzzell. And when I asked John to write this with me, I actually did it really funny at a pizza place in Atlanta, where you get served pizza by robots.

Jake Sotiriadis: Cool

Cathy Hackl: So, we always say that the book started with robot pizza. Because that's where I was, like, hey, I think we should write a book together. And I think it should be called the Augmented Workforce, you know, as our robot server, you know, comes towards us with our pizza slices.

So, I thought it was quite funny, but it was really an analysis and a counter … you know, for us it was it was taking the narrative that we keep seeing everywhere - that the dystopic narrative of, you know, AI is gonna take all the jobs, the robots are gonna take over, you know … the Skynet kind of narrative. A very dystopic and Sci-Fi, once again. And we're like, yes, we're not naive, we understand that automation will replace workers. But on the other side, it also is going to, you know, augment the workforce, and it's going to change work. It's going to change how we work. It's going to change how we train. It's going to change, you know, many different elements … and it’s going to change the worker.

So, we want to kind of counteract that type of narrative that seems so like one-sided and dystopic to say … no, let's talk about the broader picture. Yes, there will be replacement. But let's look at how these other technologies all intertwined together, and how does that impact the workforce? How does that change? Right? So that was kind of like the main idea .. the main narrative that we wanted to pursue. And we're not being you know … we're not being utopic about it. We're being more purtopian, I would say.

But yeah, we were kind of wanted to kind of explore these technologies and … and make the … the biggest thing for me is, we wanted the book to be useful, accessible, and helpful. And I feel like we achieved all of those, because the book is a good read for anyone at any level of expertise. And you can really, you know … there's, there's something for everyone in it. You can walk away understanding more about the technologies … how they work … how they're intertwined … how do they converge … and then we have a lot of chapters with specific verticals.

So, you know, you and I don't necessarily work in architecture and design. Right? But there is a small chapter on architecture and design, and you might learn something, right … by reading it … and how it's being used in that industry. And that might inspire you, you know, to be like, maybe I should explore this use case in my industry. So, yeah, it's been very well received. And yeah, just, you know, just thrilled and honored with the reception it's gotten.

Jake Sotiriadis: Congratulations. It really is a phenomenal book that that tackles, frankly, some of the biggest issues in this tech and human convergence that we've been talking about. So, when we talk about … I mean, the title, the augmented workforce … You know, what do you think that that looks like … I know it's hard to put a number or a percentage on, you know, human positions versus machine positions. But in your words in from the book, you know, how … what do you think that that looks like over the next 10,20 years? You know that sort of variation between some of the human-intensive jobs that we're doing today, moving into the future?

Cathy Hackl (26:52): Well, I think it's interesting, because while the book doesn't have the word metaverse in the title …

Jake Sotiriadis (26:57): Right.

Cathy Hackl: … it is a bit of a metaverse primer. It’s a bit of a metaverse-related book. So, so I think about two things when I think 10 to 20 years. Right? You know, you get Gen Z coming into the workforce. You know, then, by 10,20, you know, you talk about Gen Alpha. So, so you know, I kind of start to think about the workers of tomorrow and how they're different from the workers of today. And, you know, at least from the research I've done, what I know from Gen Z specifically is that they're quite different. First of all, they are digital natives. Some of them are crypto natives or will be crypto natives, which you know, is a big change. And also like they, they like gaming. They don't, they're not all necessarily gamers, but they like gaming. And they're going to expect the companies that you know that they go work for, to be innovative in the way they recruit them, and the way they train them, and in the way they retain them. And I think that that is a monumental shift necessarily in how things were done before. Right?

It was interesting because I was at an event and someone said a phrase and said, you know, it was for brands, but they said Gen Z doesn't want a brand to appease them, they want to go into business with that brand. And I said, yeah, I can wholeheartedly understand that. Because it's, you know … I think that they're a little bit tired of, you know, just giving up their data. They kind of want to earn to play. Right? I think that's a big term that you start to see pop up a lot more in gaming.

You know, it feels like this is a … I'm gonna borrow this phrase from my friend Tommaso. He said the other day to me, he said, you know, humans for the longest time have been … have been working really hard to make money. Right? You work hard, right, to make money. But with this metaverse, and this kind of unlocking of some of these technologies … creativity is becoming easier. And earning to play … the fact that I can make money while I play a video game – not, not from YouTube fans, I'm talking about actually incurrence you know … making money when I'm playing because I'm getting a great score … I have some brand loyalty or whatever. You know, that, that’s changing. That is changing our concept, our idea of work, or hard work is evolving.

So, I would say yeah, there's, there's a lot, a lot of changes coming. Gen Z is gonna have a pretty big impact … I think on the workforce. Companies are going to have to adapt. Another thing I'll tell you that I think is really interesting … it's not in the book, but it's a thesis that I hold near and dear to my heart … is that corporate America has absolutely no idea what to do with people that have personal brands. Right? That have a strong following or strong thought leadership. It doesn't mean … it doesn't mean that they have to have a million followers, but it's more about … there are leaders that are heard, you know, that people listen. Right? And corporate America is eventually going to have to adapt, because a lot of these kids, a lot of Gen Z kids come with built-in audiences. Right? So, they're gonna have to figure out, what are they going to do. Right? They’re going to eventually … controlling the message is going to be a very, you know, a very, it's gonna morph … let’s say, controlling the message is going to morph. And they're going to have to figure out what they're going to do when a lot of these kids, you know, play video games and come in with built-in audiences.

Jake Sotiriadis: This is this is really, I think, an important point to underscore … for our audience here. I mean, this is exactly the critical issue that the Intelligence Community today is looking at. Where we have … you know, from a, from a demographic perspective, you know … there's, there's a shift that needs to take place in the Intelligence Community. We've got, the same issues of attracting, attracting this new generation, the tech natives, these … you know, some crypto natives, as you've talked about. And I think that that's, that's still something that has to be right-sized if you will. And then we'll even just think about things like working from home and telework. There's still a lot of people that are just so adamant about well, we have to be back in the office full-time … going back to the way things were. Based on what you've been telling us, in your experience, especially in the tech sector. That model is quite antiquated. Would you agree?

Cathy Hackl: I agree. I mean, sometimes, yes, sometimes you will need to go to the office … if a specific thing that needs to happen. Right? So, my husband works, for example, for DoD. So, he has to go sometimes on the base, when there's something … you know … whatever a Secret, or Top Secret, or … I don't know what level but that's not my expertise. But sometimes he has to go to do things there. And I understand that.

Jake Sotiriadis: Sure.

Cathy Hackl: I understand that. But there's other things that he can just do from home. If it's a Zoom call all about, you know, hours or management - he can do that here.

So I think what you're starting to see with a lot of like Silicon Valley, and the big signal that they're sending is they're delaying their back to work schedules. And then you have companies like, you know, like Facebook, or, you know, maybe LinkedIn … let's do LinkedIn … that said, you know what, if our employees want to work remotely forever, they can. It's their choice. Right? So, I think it's going to be one of those things where it's going to be this kind of hybrid model where you might choose to work from home, but you might want to come into the office sometimes. Or, you know, or things like that.

I've been working in that type of model for the last six years … ever since I've been an AR and VR. Granted, I work in an industry that talks about the future of work … that talks about being able to put a VR device or a, you know … a Magic Leap headset on, and be able to work from home … and I've done plenty of that. You know, with me putting my device on and seeing holograms of my colleagues and having a sales meeting.
So, I've been able to do that already. So, I know it's possible.

Sometimes you will need that face-to-face. But I think that just thinking that because people are going to be in the office face-to-face, you know … we're going back to … going back to the old way … that's not necessarily realistic. And Gen Z, Gen Z, is gonna want to socialize, but they're not necessarily going to put up with all that. I think that they're going to change a little bit and how they, you know, in how they approach work.

Jake Sotiriadis: Yeah, I mean, I think … where we have the unique … the unique situation, obviously, where classified work is …. needs to be done in classified facilities. So, you can't necessarily get away from that. But I think we are seeing, you know, different types of developments … particularly technological developments that will increasingly allow people to perhaps do some classified work from home. And you know, this obviously falls more into the policy realm … but I think this is something that our senior leaders have to be very cognizant of, because as you say, in order to attract this new talent … that are going to get these kinds of things in the private sector. Right? They're going to have these baseline expectations. You know we've got to find ways to create an environment, I think, that addresses those needs. It's just seems like it's, it's something unavoidable today.

Cathy Hackl: And I think a really important part, as well, is that we’re living very much in our … in our … in a digital world. Right? So, the concept and the idea of like you Google someone and you don't find anything about them, because it was scrubbed or … you know, or they just don't have a social media presence. That in itself is weird now. Like, if I if I can't find you on social, like, something's up.

Jake Sotiriadis: That’s right.

Cathy Hackl: Exactly, right. So, I think that, that part of it is going to change as well, because these younger kids, you know, they're on … they're on platforms really early. They have … they have, you know, all the digital crumbs they've left behind. There … they start when … they start a lot, a lot younger. You know, your kids and my kids probably spent a lot of time on Roblox. I feel like part of my … part of my money goes there. Part of my salary is going to Roblox, indirectly.

So, so yeah, I think that you know, those things are going to change. And I think the big thing for me when I think about intelligence, and the metaverse and what should people listening to this podcast start to think about?... Is that there's going to be an interesting … I don't know what the right word would be … but there's going to be an interesting … I don't know if it's a battle or a war. But there's going to be some type of, you know, fight of sorts, to be able to own or to be able to control what is within people's earshot, and within people's eyesight. Right? Because what could happen is you’re gonna go from the phones to wearables … and it's going to be there, you know, some type of device in the ear, or some type of wearable in the eyes, … glasses is kind of what a lot of us talk about … and what we see in front of us, and what we hear, is going to be even more important than before, because it's going to be digitally augmented, etc. The consideration there is, who can hack that, or who can own that, who can control that is going to be incredibly powerful.

There's a concept that that many of us talk about, and you know, in the in the AR VR industry and metaverse industry, which is called diminished reality. And I actually … I brought this signal to Amy Webb, and she included in her in her South by Southwest (SXSW) talk … which I was like, oh, great. That's so exciting … but it's the idea and the concept … when we think about augmented reality, we're always usually thinking about adding, like adding things. Right? But what if it's the opposite? What if you're actually deleting things? What if there's a certain group of people you don't like? And you just block them out and you don't see them through your wearable? What does that do? Right? How does that impact your relationship with the world and the people around you?

So, I think that there's lots of questions and a lot of considerations that the Intelligence Community needs to start to think through … when it comes to you know … to like I said … owning or controlling or thinking about what's within someone's earshot and someone's eyesight. Because that's really where, like I said, it's like, that's where the cyber war of tomorrow is going to be fought. It's not gonna be fought so much in the servers, it’s gonna be hacks. It's gonna be hacks in front of our eyes. It's gonna be hacks in our ears.

Jake Sotiriadis: Gosh, this is, I mean it's scary on the one hand, but fascinating on the other … because really talking about sort of rewiring the whole ontology of our world and you know how this all hangs together in this, you know … and what do you subtract from reality … that diminished reality is a term I hadn't heard before … and I think that's, that's something we definitely need to, we need to unpack and think about the implications.

You know, I think that carries us into an important topic, which is that it's this public-private sector collaboration … to really take the mission forward that's going to be so critical and you know … your virtual reality project, Cathy … and that's … I really think a classic example of what we need to do in the future. National Intelligence University is actually in the middle of creating a collaboration laboratory that's going to promote this kind of synergy in the future and public and private sector collaboration. So, what do you think, from your perspective, you're an expert at doing this, you know, what makes effective public-private sector collaboration? And from an industry perspective … what do you see maybe as some of the major roadblocks to making this successful in the future?

Cathy Hackl: Yeah, I think, you know, making collaboration … I don't want to say easy, because it's not been easy, but accessible. Making collaboration accessible, you know, it’s going to be really important. Extra communication, I think that's going to be critical as well. And I just think it's an openness from both sides on collaborating, you know. It's interesting because sometimes for the private companies, like their profit-driven, they’re shareholder driven. So, what's their advantage in partnering, you know, with, with defense to do something? But it's really about, you know, we want to protect the country, and we want to do something good, and want to use our technologies for good, and for helping kind of keep our country safe.

So, I think there has to be, you know, motivation from both sides - open communication. Yeah, there are hurdles, and there are things that need to be cleared. Right? If you're using a special, like, some type of equipment or something, you have to make sure it's the right equipment - all those sorts of things. But, but yeah, I think that there, there needs to be, you know, kind of an alignment. I want to see definitely more of this type of collaboration. I do have to say, you know … AppWorks, SpaceWork, you know, NavalX … all these sorts of things that are kind of opening the door for some of that. I think are very powerful and, and very interesting … in my point of view.

Jake Sotiriadis: Yeah, that's … I think we're just scratching the surface of where we need to be. That's … it's, it's wonderful to hear that perspective. Let's maybe talk a little bit … when we talk about the future. It's so easy, you and you mentioned a little bit before that people just tend to focus on these dystopian futures … and, you know, all the things that could go wrong and right … and even when we think about the pandemic, in this moment that we're living in, you know, it’s, it's a challenging time. So, from your perspective, as a tech futurist, what's the most optimistic thing that you think about? Do you have, do you have a general sense of optimism concerning the future?

Cathy Hackl: I do. I am quite a bit of an optimist. And, you know, I think it might come with the fact that I have children, and I want to have better world for them. At least that's my goal. So, I'm pretty optimistic. I mean, I do feel like things have accelerated quite a bit. There are new opportunities being created. I think workers are looking to have more equity, you know, in the market. I think one big thing that you've seen is some of the companies truly understanding that being customer focused is important, but they have to focus on their employees as well. Right? You have to be employee-focused as well, you can't just be, you know, customer-focused, and turning stuff out. And yeah, serve as the customer. But isn't your employee your customer as well?

So, I think I love seeing that change. You know, in certain companies that are starting to, you know, embrace more of that employee experience mentality. I think that's very powerful. And yeah, I mean, I'm, to be honest, I'm quite optimistic about Gen Z … and Gen Z’s creativity and eagerness to solve problems … and to collaborate. You know, from a from a climate stance, I'm worried. I'm very worried … about kind of the things that are coming. But I do, I do feel like Gen Z might be that generation that, that has that knack for solving things. Right? That is going to want to kind of really work on these things and solve issues and you know, make the world a better place for Gen Alpha. So yeah, we'll see. I'm quite, you know … I'm excited about … as scary as it sounds, and as weird as it sounds … that our kids have been kind of having to do virtual schooling and haven't had a lot of challenges. I am excited to see how that resilience that they've had to build up because of the situation … how that actually shows up in the future as well.

Jake Sotiriadis: That definitely is a … it’s a good news story to me. And, I'll just tell you what, Cathy, it's been so inspiring speaking with you today. We really appreciate your time coming on and speaking with us. Where can our listeners find you? Obviously, we talked about the book. They can find the Augmented Workforce on Amazon. But where can they find out more about you, Cathy?

Cathy Hackl: I would say definitely on LinkedIn … that's kind of where I share a lot of my thought leadership. They can find me on LinkedIn … Cathy Hackl … and also, I write for Forbes. I’m going to be working on some work, you know, media contribution. So, you might see me on the airwaves a little bit more often. Which I'm really excited … so yeah, you know, LinkedIn is definitely the best place by far.

Jake Sotiriadis: Excellent. Well, thank you so much for being with us. We've been talking with tech futurist, Cathy Hackl … the author of the Augmented Workforce. Thank you, Cathy.

Cathy Hackl: Thank you.

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Jane DOE: Jane DOE: Thank you for listening to the Intelligence Jumpstart podcast. We'd love to hear from you about what you liked and what you'd like to hear more of. If you would like to hear more about a specific topic or issue, send us a note at NIPress@niu.odni.gov. To learn more about NIU visit our website at NI-U.edu.